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Ethics and writing

Started by hrystya at 06-13-2005 12:40 PM. Topic has 405 replies.
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   06-13-2005, 12:40 PM
hrystya

Joined on 06-13-2005
Omaha, Nebraska
Posts 89
Post Icon Death
I wrote a novel in which a chericter dies from Muscular Dystrophy. This book was only intended to be sold for cherity at a local auction for the MDA (Muscular Dystrophy Association), but soon got a life of it's own. It was almost published in the MDA magazine Qwest but got turned down, b/c of the death in the story. This worried me, because this book was intended for people to learn more about Muscular Dystrophy and its effects, and if I suggar coded it and made the charecter live, it wouldn't be right. Do you think it is more importent to leave readers happy or to get the truth across?
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   06-13-2005, 6:38 PM
danahunter

Joined on 06-06-2005
Arizona
Posts 298
Post Icon RE: Death
I love you for this! You've just given me the chance to sound off on something near and dear to my heart. [}:)] Mwah ha ha.... Ahem. Sorry. Right, death, characters, sugar coating of.

NEVER NEVER NEVER sugarcoat. Stay true to the story unless you don't mind selling out and incidentally betraying your characters. That's not a bad thing for those who wish to please a majority or achieve commercial success (and I'm not condemning anyone for that, just saying I couldn't do the same), but for someone who wants to show the truth in its less pleasant aspects it's poison. You're saying that MD can kill. I'd think that's the best thing to say if they want money for their charity, myself, because it shows why research monies are so desperately needed, but for some reason, a lot of people have trouble confronting that truth. Good for you that you can.

So no, I don't believe you should let that character live unless you think the story is better served by their living.

And now, anecdotes to possibly support my point. My best friend, one of the most insightful people I know, loves to relate the story of how he told a couple acquaintences that J.K. Rowling had mentioned how upset she was that one of her characters died in her recent book (I think this was Book 4). One of the people there said, "Well, she could have written him alive." To which my friend replied, "No, she couldn't. That's not the story."

When one of my favorite characters died, a less insightful friend of mine gave me the same line - you could just let him live. But that would have done him an injustice and made a true story patently false. In war, people die, even the good guys. What sort of idiot would I be if I ignored that? Am I going to pander to the Pollyannas by writing him alive, giving him a miraculous escape from an inescapable situation? I think not. And so instead, I cried, and I wrote his death and cried some more, and I feel that I did the right thing by him.

War, disease, drunk driving, etc., so many things can kill a human being. We're not serving our readers if we don't acknowledge that. And as for leaving readers happy, I don't think many people are happy with contrived happy endings. Let it be the way it must be. Do the right thing by your characters, even if it means you can't save them. Don't worry if that's not the "popular" thing to do. And you can be proud that you can make the tough choices.


en tequila es verdad
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   06-13-2005, 7:38 PM
hrystya

Joined on 06-13-2005
Omaha, Nebraska
Posts 89
RE: Death
I didn't change it. I wasn't going to. If I did, I would have had to totalty rewrite the entire story. Plus, it dtd (or is in the proscess of) getting published. Also, changing the subject a little, as a writer, do you ever feel guilty for writing in pain/death of a cheractor?
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   06-13-2005, 7:58 PM
danahunter

Joined on 06-06-2005
Arizona
Posts 298
Post Icon RE: Death
I hope I didn't imply you had changed anything - I figured you hadn't. You sounded like you weren't going to sabatoge the story to please anyone else, and I respect that immensely. BTW, congratulations on getting it published!

QUOTE: as a writer, do you ever feel guilty for writing in pain/death of a cheractor?

Excellent question. Demands an honest answer.

I used to. I used to torture myself, feel like I'd betrayed them by allowing them to suffer or die. But we all sat down and had a long honest talk (yes, I speak to them as if they're there. To me, they do have an existence independent of me, and we often have conversations. Nobody's put me in a padded room for it yet!). During that talk, I learned that it's my job to portray everything as it is, not as I would wish it to be. I don't do horrible things to them. Horrible things happen, but I'm not the one who's hurt or killed them. I don't know that I'm explaining this very well myself, so here's two quotes I use to describe what I do:

"I am just a spectator, an advocate documenting the loss" - Opeth

"I decided to devote my life to telling the story because I felt that having survived, I owed something to the dead.... And anyone who does not remember betrays them again." - Elie Wiesel.

So the guilt is gone. I can't save them. But I mourn them, I grieve, and I make sure that what they sacrifice is never overlooked, that the lives they lived are as important as the way they died, and I continue to tell the story. As one of my characters said, "The dead are best served by living". And when someone is suffering, well, the most I can do is be there for them. I can't ease their suffering, but at least they're never alone.

It's not all gloom and doom, of course, but I am writing about a war, and so I've had to come to terms with that reality. Not easy, but necessary, just as facing the realities of a killer disease is.

Let me know when it's available. You've got me wanting to read this now!

en tequila es verdad
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   06-13-2005, 10:24 PM
hrystya

Joined on 06-13-2005
Omaha, Nebraska
Posts 89
Post Icon RE: Death
You know, I feel conected to my cherectors to. When I finished writing it I felt like I was losing great friends. I knew them inside out. And with the fan fic I'm writing right now I'm dreading finishing it b/c the female love interest is in a serious relationship/engaged to Clay Aiken who I'm obsessed with. I live out my fantasys through her. Forgive me if that's disturbing. [:I] When it'll be over, I have to let go of that[:(]
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   06-14-2005, 1:13 AM
danahunter

Joined on 06-06-2005
Arizona
Posts 298
Post Icon RE: Death
Whatever you're writing can't be as - how can I put this delicately - graphic as the stuff my stepmother writes about James Marsters![:p]
Let's just say I feel like I need to scrub out my brain with a Brillo pad while lying in a tub of icewater afterward....

I definitely know what you mean about feeling like you're losing touch with friends after finishing a story. That's one of the many reasons I chose to write a series instead of stand-alones. Louis L'Amour used to sometimes write a short story about a character just to catch up with them, see how they've been and what they've been up to since he last saw them. When I read that, I knew I wasn't insane.

Much.

Good luck fulfilling fantasies vicariously, there!

en tequila es verdad
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   06-14-2005, 8:53 AM
hrystya

Joined on 06-13-2005
Omaha, Nebraska
Posts 89
RE: Death
lol No my fan fic is (mostly) pg13. That's a good idea though, to write shorts about the character.
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   06-15-2005, 2:36 AM
danahunter

Joined on 06-06-2005
Arizona
Posts 298
Post Icon RE: Death
Yes, you never know where that might take you. I used the write THE most ridiculous fan fic putting my main character in league with such lights as Simon & Simon and the Hardy Boys. She laughs at me for what I did to her.

Fan fiction is a great way to hone skills, but I'll never do it again unless someone begs me to oh, say, write an episode of Alias. I have far too much fun with my own folks now to want other people's creations around. But there's a fun game my friend Paul and I still occasionally play: in a face-off between my cast and another writer's characters, who would win? Thinking of Alias just now, I'd have to revise the rules a bit: which of my cast members teamed with whom would be most likely to take over the world? [}:)] The reason I mention all of this is because the game can be twisted to suit: which characters would fall in love, etc., and sometimes by playing it you find out more about your characters than you ever knew before.

Just glad to hear that if I read your current opus, I won't need to fill the tub with ice again [:p]

en tequila es verdad
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   06-15-2005, 11:41 AM
hrystya

Joined on 06-13-2005
Omaha, Nebraska
Posts 89
Post Icon RE: Death
My fanfic is a romance. Yes, I admit, I'm a hopeless romantic,[:I] Liike I said it's about Clay Aiken, and a girl he meets on a plane from New Zealand (sp). She's lonley, depressed, and suicidal, so Clay takes her in. Over time, they fall for each other, and the whole story is just about their relationship and some hard things they go through. I know it but sound really ideolistic and all, but people (mostly Clay fans, lol) like it.
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   06-15-2005, 7:51 PM
danahunter

Joined on 06-06-2005
Arizona
Posts 298
Post Icon RE: Death
There's still a place in the world for idealists and romantics. Besides, you obviously have a great sense of humor about it all. Writing can be as much about the writer having fun as the writer trying to entertain an audience. Maybe that's why fan fic's so popular - it's like it's okay to enjoy yourself writing fan fiction, but for some reason people forget to have fun in other forms of writing.

One of these days, I'll get my story "Ghosthunter Diaries" published, and some fun might return. Even those who, like me, write in a deadly serious world, must at times realize that even in the midst of gloom and doom one must have SOME fun. [:D]

If you ever feel like dipping into some sci fi that's written by an unabashed romantic having fun with her craft, pick up a book called "Impossible Things" by Connie Willis and read "Spice Pogrom". It makes one realize that there's still a place for sappy romance in our mad, sad world.

en tequila es verdad
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   06-15-2005, 11:05 PM
ProperNoun

Joined on 05-19-2005
Posts 30
RE: Death
Who is Clay Aiken?

(I know I could look him up on the Internet, but I just think it's amusing that I haven't the slightest idea who he is.)

And what is a James Marsters?

(I avoid the entertainment world, so these guys must be from that planet, right?)

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   06-15-2005, 11:24 PM
danahunter

Joined on 06-06-2005
Arizona
Posts 298
Post Icon RE: Death
Nice of you to join us! This was starting to look like our own private subject, here. [:D]

I'll let Hrystya explain Clay Aiken - she's the expert there. James Marsters is an actor who played a vampire on Buffy and Angel. He was also in "The Notebook". Women salivate over him.

So, to get us back on topic: do YOU have an opinion regarding the death of characters?

en tequila es verdad
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   06-15-2005, 11:35 PM
ProperNoun

Joined on 05-19-2005
Posts 30
RE: Death
Fiction lives through characters and conflict. Death is the ultimate conflict. No one wants to read a story about people who are going about their merry, easy lives. We want to live merry, easy lives. We don't want to read about them.

The job of the fiction writer is to squeeze his characters until it seems they'll never survive. Quite often, a satisfying ending requires that the main character comes through the fire alive, but if the story leads to death, the death must happen.

Gratuitous violence or death is meaningless. Death happens, though. It is the writer's job to bring the story to whatever conclusion is logical and believable in the particular story.
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   06-16-2005, 12:45 AM
VirtuallyYourz

Joined on 12-27-2004
Pacific Northwest
Posts 63
RE: Death
I agree that you need to stay true to your characters and your story. Do not sell out to get it published. There are avenues for publishing, regardless of the feedback on your finished product.

May I be so bold as to make a suggestion, though? Your story sounds like it has very strong points that need to carry the story. However, your postings are filled with misspellings, etc. If you really want to be heard, make sure your work (even online forum postings) are flawless. It will help you to put your best foot forward always!

Best of luck to you!
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   06-16-2005, 1:14 AM
danahunter

Joined on 06-06-2005
Arizona
Posts 298
Post Icon RE: Death
QUOTE: Originally posted by ProperNoun

Gratuitous violence or death is meaningless. Death happens, though. It is the writer's job to bring the story to whatever conclusion is logical and believable in the particular story.


Meaningless and irritating. If all a writer can think of to get the audience's attention is to interject violence and mayhem for their own sake, they probably need to rethink the conflict in their stories. Believe it or not, the Highlander TV series actually had a great philosophy around that: their sword master said that the fights could never be gratuitous - you don't stop the story for a fight, you continue the story through the fight. Same thing with death: if you're not telling the story with someone's death, just trying to make it exciting, you cheapen the whole thing.

en tequila es verdad
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   06-16-2005, 7:22 AM
ProperNoun

Joined on 05-19-2005
Posts 30
Post Icon RE: RE: Death
QUOTE: Originally posted by VirtuallyYourz

I agree that you need to stay true to your characters and your story. Do not sell out to get it published. There are avenues for publishing, regardless of the feedback on your finished product.

May I be so bold as to make a suggestion, though? Your story sounds like it has very strong points that need to carry the story. However, your postings are filled with misspellings, etc. If you really want to be heard, make sure your work (even online forum postings) are flawless. It will help you to put your best foot forward always!

Best of luck to you!



According to hrystya's introduction over in another thread, she was born in Ukraine. Therefore, I'm guessing that English is not her first language. Many of her spellings seem to be phonetic interpretations of English words.

I like to give a little spelling slack to people who are speaking English as a second language. Native speakers, on the other hand, won't get much sympathy from me when they slaughter their mother tongue with misspellings.

Warning: In another thread, I dared to suggest to a young writer that proper spelling and punctuation should be priorities for serious writers. I was threatened with having something stapled to my head. [:0]
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   06-16-2005, 9:28 AM
mrevelle


Joined on 08-23-2004
Coastal Georgia
Posts 160
RE: Death
Sometimes the death of a character is necessary. In The Green Mile, ultimately turned into a movie with Tom Hanks and Michael Duncan, I cried my eyes out at the end when one of the main characters was executed. At first, I was in disbelief. Where was the wonderful ending? Why didn't someone step in and save him? What about his gift!?! I screamed these things to my husband, who of course couldn't answer me. I realized though, there could not have been a more effective ending to this story. Sad, but true.

Not into Clay, sorry. Marsters, now there's a possibilty there!

I don't have any stars I use in my writings. I frequently use my husband in them. He looks like a cross between the Marlboro Man and Sam Garrett. Grrr

On writing about people with disorders, I can't stand to read (or even watch) something that mentions that a character has a disease or disorder, then never displays it during the book (or movie or program). I feel that portrays people with those disorders/diseases as never having problems with it. If someone mentions that in a book, they definitely need to at least show some of the symptoms at some time in the story. If not, it's completely pointless to give characters disorders/diseases. I'd rather read a book that, if a disorder is mentioned, it is brought up several times to show how it affects the character.

By the way, congrats on the publishing!

"Be who you are and say what you feel, for those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
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   06-16-2005, 10:54 AM
hrystya

Joined on 06-13-2005
Omaha, Nebraska
Posts 89
Post Icon RE: Death
Okay, wow, lot's of things to talk about!

First of Clay Aiken "sigh" lol He was the runner up of Amerian Idol in 2001. He is way better of a singer then the winner or any other contestent on any of the four seasons of AI, and may I say he is HOT


[img=http://img99.echo.cx/img99/2745/cinv0010ws.jpg]" border="0" />
[img=http://img99.echo.cx/img99/3920/chair11md.jpg]

Okay, one more, lol

[IMG]http://img44.echo.cx/img44/6493/ellephoto7pq.gif" border="0" />" border="0" />


He also has a non profit orginazation called theBubel/Aiken Foundation which gets children with special needs into programs and activities with children without special needs. http://www.thebubelaikenfoundation.com/ Clay is also the Ambasador of Education for UNICEF. He has toured four times in the past two years, and is touring again this summer.

Okay, I'll stop now, lol. [:I]


I know my spelling isn't the best. I got yelled at alot about that in school. I've actuly lived in the US for 14 years. I guess my problem is that I get so cought up in my writing I forget about spelling. Don't worry, I won't staple anything to your head. lol

[quoteFiction lives through characters and conflict. Death is the ultimate conflict. No one wants to read a story about people who are going about their merry, easy lives. We want to live merry, easy lives. We don't want to read about them. ]


I I both agree and disagree. I think we read to get away from our troubles, so we don't want to read about them. On the other hand if you read about someone who is going through stuff, you tend to feel like you're not alone in this sas, sad world.





I wrote my nvel primarely as an assignment for senior project. One of the rules was that we had to do research on our topic to use in our project. I mentioned alot of the effects (both physical and emotional) of Muscular Distrophy, so I hope it seems real.
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   06-16-2005, 5:58 PM
danahunter

Joined on 06-06-2005
Arizona
Posts 298
Post Icon RE: RE: Death
QUOTE: Originally posted by mrevelle

Sometimes the death of a character is necessary. In The Green Mile, ultimately turned into a movie with Tom Hanks and Michael Duncan, I cried my eyes out at the end when one of the main characters was executed.

I wonder how much power The Green Mile would have lost if that main character wasn't executed? The entire novel led up to that moment - if Stephen King had wimped out at the last minute and written in a stay of execution or a pardon, it would have been a heart-lifting story, but it would have had all the substance and lasting power of a Tootsie roll. I sobbed, granted, but I felt so transported, and so ready to take on the world's injustices, and most importantly, that it could be done.

QUOTE: Not into Clay, sorry. Marsters, now there's a possibilty there!

Mmmm, James..... Makes you want to write a character he could play, get Hollywood to turn it into a movie, and have him hired.... But I digress.

QUOTE: On writing about people with disorders, I can't stand to read (or even watch) something that mentions that a character has a disease or disorder, then never displays it during the book (or movie or program). I feel that portrays people with those disorders/diseases as never having problems with it.

Some authors seem to throw that in just to create what they think is a well-rounded character with an interesting background and/or a twist. They have no idea what it's like to actually live with a disease, and so they're never able to show the impact, or it's inconvenient for them because that limits the character in some way, so they ignore the limitation. That's another thing that burns me, especially since I have one friend who's in a wheelchair and another who has cerebal palsy, and see the impact from those things every day. Authors have to face facts, here: if you're throwing in a disease or disability as a gimmick, don't. It cheapens the reality and does no justice to the character or the author's writing ability. They have to remember that a disease/disability places limitations and creates new problems and opportunities, no matter how much we might want to show the disabled and sick as "Just like us". If they're "just like us", why bother to give them the problem in the first place?

QUOTE: Originally posted by hrystya

I wrote my nvel primarely as an assignment for senior project. One of the rules was that we had to do research on our topic to use in our project. I mentioned alot of the effects (both physical and emotional) of Muscular Distrophy, so I hope it seems real.


Real enough for publication, and real enough to upset some people! [:D] Sounds like you've done it right. And the beauty is, you didn't ignore anything: some people focus on the physical, some on the emotional, but it's rare to see them both handled at once. Good on you!

And thanks for not stapling anything to Propernoun's head. [:p]

For anyone else who wants to complain about your spelling, etc., I just suggest they look at the stories you've posted for critiquing and note that when it matters, you do just fine in those departments.

en tequila es verdad
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   06-16-2005, 7:24 PM
mrevelle


Joined on 08-23-2004
Coastal Georgia
Posts 160
RE: Death
I wouldn't be too hard on spelling myself. I'm sure anyone can post anything here and someone from somewhere will find something wrong with it, whether it be spelling, grammer, usage, idea, etc, etc and etc. I read a book recently where the author says that she "pored over the books." Is it pored like acne prone, or is it poured like flowed over???? I'm not the greatest speller in the world though I do make an effort. If I'm on a board and there's no spell check, oh well. Bring on the stapler!!![:D]

[:D]

"Be who you are and say what you feel, for those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
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