QUOTE: When I'm sipping c***tails (no milk and cookies) with them sometime down the road, I'll let them know y'all would love a visit from them and some advice.
[bow]Too funny! Lordy oh my, please do! If after twenty years this hasn't materialized, though, I guess I'll have to take my chances. Or run fast and beat you to it! ooh OOH! Can we add Koontz to the list? He doesn't live far from me and I love his stuff. (The newsletters from his dog Trixie are too much.)[wow]

Um, by the way, I forgot to ask...whatever happened to your post wayy back on page 1 being your "last on the subject?" Just curious. [:-^]

I may still try to change your mind about the milk and cookies, though. I've met Stephen King and can say that not all writers think themselves too good for a milk mustache or the twist of an Oreo. (That one's for you, Kat!) [:D]

Janell
Living proof that a little knowledge is dangerous
(right, LeeAnn?)

QUOTE: Otherwise they'd know that Santa's not the only one who keeps a Naughty and Nice list

I know about that. <groan> When I see certain names in my Inbox or in a byline, like the PayPal guy I mentioned, my skin crawls. But when I see names, like zubbycat, Jenna Glatzer, Shaunna Privratsky, Mridu Khullar, Barb Cooper, etc., etc. on articles, I get all warm and happy inside -- kind of like when someone says, "You want some milk and cookies?" <insert Snoopy dance here> or when you pick up a book by your favorite author... you just know it's going to be good.

It's interesting (and funny as he!!) to read back through all the posts here...

How people with 20 years experience even thought I was specifically refering to them, I'll never know. (This reminds me of a time I was on the phone with my mother talking about something mundane like how I cook pot roast, and my then new ([censored] abusive ex) husband assumed we were talking bad about him, and I had to point out, as I often did, Everything's not always about you. Yup... that about sums that up)

I never said I've never been published, but I can say I've never been rejected. [:D]

I also never said to spend every waking moment reading about your craft as some people seem to think. Geez... To anyone who wants to succeed in their writing career: Read one book, peruse articles on one website, etc. that deals with the kind of writing you'd like to do. Investing a few hours of your time is the best investment you'll ever make in your career.

What's that saying? Doing the same thing over and over expecting to get a different result is a sign of craziness. (Something like that but I'm sure some of you will understand)

For example, let's take imaginary Writer A. Out of the blue this person, whose writing experience includes grocery lists, text messaging with friends, etc., decides he/she is a freelance writer and begins to send out 5 (or 10 or 50) queries a day, but each one is/most are met with rejection (if it receives a response at all). What should this person do? Keep on sending them out as some seem to think in previous posts, or try to figure out what the problem is before he/she spends anymore time? (OK.. there are some individuals who think they are so perfect, the rejection is the editor's problem and not theirs, but antisocial behavior is a topic for another time)

A visit to a website like Absolute Write, or Googling for "query letters"(LOOK! There's 8.5 million links on that topic alone!!), and spending a few hours learning would save this person months or years of heartache.

SOME people don't know you can't send a query letter filled with misspelled words or covered in coffee stains, or cover a broad topic ("I want to write an article about cats"), or the editor of Dog Fancy doesn't want an article about cats, or that you shouldn't open it with a 2-page bio, or that coughing up a lousy $3 to join WritersMarket.com will usually yield the secrets of what that editor does want, or that continually harrassing an editor will put you on the s#!t list, or ... or.... or..... or.....

I mean, come on... how many times have we seen someone ask if they should put a copyright on their submission so an editor doesn't steal their "idea"? [xx(]

[To anyone here who has never heard, that's a No No -- editors see that a sign that you're an amateur; you can't copyright ideas; MOST editors know better than to steal from writers or they'd be in court and booted out of their career] [banghead]

[While I'm on a roll, here's a huge tip for SOME of you:
If you receive newsletters that contain market listings and see one you'd like to submit to, hundreds, or even thousands, of other writers will submit to that same market during the first two days, and that editor will be buried alive in email. Instead of letting yours be the proverbial needle in a haystack, wait a week (two is better) and then send your submission. Yours will stand out. Trust me!

(Being buried alive in email HAS happened to me a number of times, so MAYBE I know what I'm talking about)]

[Here's another tip: If you WANT to give an editor a nervous tic, send them emai with this subject line:

Submission

I would rather find a Do-It-Yourself-At-Home Lobotomy kit than open that email, but HEY! That's just me. You do what you want]

Who's read Stephen King's On Writing? C'mon... let's see those hands. In it he says to learn your craft, practice, polish, proofread, let someone else read it before you submit (he says he has his wife and his friends read his work before HE submits), read books (good books, bad books)...... My original post only reiterated what he, the master [bow], said. If you want to argue with the logic behind his 'secret to success' -- Go For it! (and I hope he turns you into a character in one of his stories and horrible, hide-under-the-sheets kind of things happen to your 'character.' [(-D]

Me? I'm a reader. I love to get lost in a good book. This means I also know crap when I see it. (If you ever want to torture me, make me go to xlibrus.com and read excerpts from self-published books --NO!! Not that! Anything but that!! [xx(])

As an editor (even if it is a little, peanut newsletter), I've learned the hard way what it's like to be on the receiving end of submissions. And because I read writer newsletters, books, etc., I'm continuously learning what it takes to write an attention-getting query and all the other ways to succeed as a freelance writer, and I know when I decide to make the time to start submitting, I have a good shot at being in the 10% editors can use. I've seen the competition. [swg]

Diane

http://www.CoolStuff4Writers.com

P.S.

To the person who mentioned my submission guidelines: I fell off my chair. I think YOU are the only person who found them on your own. Most can't be bothered to look for them (you did what? Clicked Newsletter?) let alone read them.

One time a year ago someone sent me an article on how to make extra money writing the content for placemats in restaurants, so I added the part to my guidelines about articles on ideas for earning extra money writing. To date, she is the only one who submitted such a concept, but it's not uncommon for, say , copywriters to dabble in sex writing for fun and money.

QUOTE: Originally posted by DiTryin


Here's something that's been grating my cheese since the day I said my newsletter is a paying market: writers don't go out of their way to learn their trade.

Maybe I'm the only one who, when the decision to get into freelance writing hit me, I bought books and ebooks, signed up for newsletters, and read the articles on writer sites trying to learn everything I could to so I would succeed. (Yeah, ok, so I'm book-smart and experience poor, but this will work in my favor once I start submitting)

But if you get more rejections than you do acceptances, do yourself a favor and READ! Learn how to do it right so you'll stop doing it wrong. Learn how to write a good, attention-getting query, learn how to submit it, proofread your piece before you send it, run it by someone else (preferably a writer) to make sure it's clear and as good as it can be before you send it to an editor, look at past issues to see if it's even a good fit for this publication (someone once sent me a piece on LINUX (the computer code) -- and then sent me a nastygram when I said it wasn't a good fit for my newsletter! And writers wonder why some editors don't respond! <pound head on desk>),..........

Have you ever heard that editors can only use 10% of what they receive? I'm here to tell you -- that is s-o-o-o-o true! You don't have to be in the other 90%. Do a little homework. Learn from the pros what works and what doesn't. If you really want to succeed -- do yourself (and editors) a favor and do it!
[8D]
Diane
http://www.coolstuff4writers.com/FreeShipping.html


I’m a little confused here. How can anybody disagree with this? It’s basic common sense:

But if you get more rejections than you do acceptances, do yourself a favor and READ!

Seems only natural that anybody who wants to try something new read up on it first and learn the ground rules. That has nothing to do with learning and improving the craft – but learning the rules of the craft, the basics. How can one improve their writing without even knowing spelling, grammar and story structure?

And it doesn’t matter if the editor is a third grader or a Fleet Street powerbroker. They are still the editor and therefore the gatekeeper. And if the editor happens to like long stream-of-consciousness articles written in bad grammar and bad spelling - well, if you want them to pay for your work, you’re going to follow those rules. It’s only common sense for a person to find out what that editor wants before they send them something.

Hmmmm, let’s see…

"Learn how to write a good, attention-getting query"

"learn how to submit it"

"proofread your piece before you send it"

"run it by someone else (preferably a writer) to make sure it's clear and as good as it can be before you send it to an editor"

"look at past issues to see if it's even a good fit for this publication"

I’m still having a hard time figuring out which of these was found so objectionable. They all sound like good advice to me. The kind of advice thousands of beginning writers come here seeking every week.

Can anybody enlighten me???

QUOTE: Originally posted by brokenfingers

QUOTE: Originally posted by DiTryin


Here's something that's been grating my cheese since the day I said my newsletter is a paying market: writers don't go out of their way to learn their trade.

Maybe I'm the only one who, when the decision to get into freelance writing hit me, I bought books and ebooks, signed up for newsletters, and read the articles on writer sites trying to learn everything I could to so I would succeed. (Yeah, ok, so I'm book-smart and experience poor, but this will work in my favor once I start submitting)

But if you get more rejections than you do acceptances, do yourself a favor and READ! Learn how to do it right so you'll stop doing it wrong. Learn how to write a good, attention-getting query, learn how to submit it, proofread your piece before you send it, run it by someone else (preferably a writer) to make sure it's clear and as good as it can be before you send it to an editor, look at past issues to see if it's even a good fit for this publication (someone once sent me a piece on LINUX (the computer code) -- and then sent me a nastygram when I said it wasn't a good fit for my newsletter! And writers wonder why some editors don't respond! <pound head on desk>),..........

Have you ever heard that editors can only use 10% of what they receive? I'm here to tell you -- that is s-o-o-o-o true! You don't have to be in the other 90%. Do a little homework. Learn from the pros what works and what doesn't. If you really want to succeed -- do yourself (and editors) a favor and do it!
[8D]
Diane
http://www.coolstuff4writers.com/FreeShipping.html


I’m a little confused here. How can anybody disagree with this? It’s basic common sense:

But if you get more rejections than you do acceptances, do yourself a favor and READ!

Seems only natural that anybody who wants to try something new read up on it first and learn the ground rules. That has nothing to do with learning and improving the craft – but learning the rules of the craft, the basics. How can one improve their writing without even knowing spelling, grammar and story structure?

And it doesn’t matter if the editor is a third grader or a Fleet Street powerbroker. They are still the editor and therefore the gatekeeper. And if the editor happens to like long stream-of-consciousness articles written in bad grammar and bad spelling - well, if you want them to pay for your work, you’re going to follow those rules. It’s only common sense for a person to find out what that editor wants before they send them something.

Hmmmm, let’s see…

"Learn how to write a good, attention-getting query"

"learn how to submit it"

"proofread your piece before you send it"

"run it by someone else (preferably a writer) to make sure it's clear and as good as it can be before you send it to an editor"

"look at past issues to see if it's even a good fit for this publication"

I’m still having a hard time figuring out which of these was found so objectionable. They all sound like good advice to me. The kind of advice thousands of beginning writers come here seeking every week.

Can anybody enlighten me???



Well, here are some of my thoughts.

It may be good advice--as some have said, basic, common sense principles. But in being presented as a "peeve," from the start it doesn't necessarily have a "helpful" tone. Peeves tend to be, well, peevish. To borrow some terminology from Di herself, they can make some people's skin crawl.

Second, what Di is telling us here is hardly a new issue if you have spent any time at all reading or listening to editors. Nearly every editor can tell you about this problem. Yes, the same advice has to (apparently) be reiterated over and over again because apparently some people don't understand what's involved before submitting a query or article. I'm not sure Di's peeve post is really going to change anything here.

If Di's purpose in posting this was truly to help less experienced writers both as they prepare to submit to her own publication and to any published by others, she might have considered (and could still consider):

1) responding to the relevant queries as they come up here and on other forums and sharing her insights on the submission process from her particular perspective
2) including the link to her newsletter's submission guidelines as well as the link to her free shipping page (in another post she seems to be surprised that I managed found them myself)
3) writing a constructive article on how writers can improve their relationships with editors (however, as a side note to one of her points, many submission guidelines DO specify including "submission" in the subject line, so again, it's really important not to take any one editor's opinion/policy as a generalization). In general, beware generalizations!

I do think there were elements of both the tone and the content, as has been noted, that made positive discussion challenging here. But I think that's the nature of "peeves," which seem more often intended to express/vent frustration rather than offer real solutions.

I don't know how "enlightening" that is, though....

QUOTE: Originally posted by DiTryin
How people with 20 years experience even thought I was specifically refering to them, I'll never know.

DiTryin, it's not so much what you said, but that you had the audacity to say it. Afterall, do you really think you can measure up to this (said with tongue-in-cheek) [;)]:

QUOTE:
… I hope to offer something of what I've learned in more than twenty years as a freelance writer - not two decades of closet writing or playing a writer game - but twenty years of credits, publications, and paychecks…

…I don't make an official announcement each time I have a new byline or clip. I don't need to - I established myself as a writer long ago…

…Watch for my byline coming to a publication near you….

…If you don't want to notice my byline, then don't…Just be sure to turn the page if you run across my name and don't read the article…

…I'm a working freelance writer with no other occupation. If I got "rejected all the time" I wouldn't be paying the bills or making enough money to make the job worthwhile…

…I have experience - twenty plus years of it…

…I am not validated by this Forum. I wrote and published long before I discovered it - in fact years before it even existed…

…I am a freelance writer - I write some non-fiction, a lot of newspaper columns, poetry, and fiction…

…I haven't heard of you either…

…When I'm sipping c***tails (no milk and cookies) with them [Tan, King, or Koontz] sometime down the road, I'll let them know y'all would love a visit from them and some advice...



Gag me! I'm having so much fun playing a counter-the-nastiness role that I just can't stop myself! I love peace, but I'm just in a mood to play word games with anyone who wants to start the game off and keep it going!

I'm going to have some brandy in my milk now...

QUOTE: Originally posted by lisaloganwrites



I wonder how some manage to survive the critique process, if posts like these throw them into such a dither.

Janell


Well, it's an interesting connection to try to draw, and one that I'm not sure works in many respects (I'd bet most of us [except for those posting work on public discussion boards for comment] tend to ask for critiques on specific manuscripts from people we've chosen for that purpose [writing groups, writing teachers, etc.]; the peeve was presented as something of a general indictment that no one really asked Di for). But in trying to sustain the critique connection I'll simply say that critiques are usually most successful when they focus on the manuscript (that is, the writing) and not on the writer who wrote it, when they are carefully structured and thought-out in service of the manuscript (again) and not the person writing the critique (the parallel to the person writing the peeve in this case).

In other words, critiques that simply serve to vent the critiquer's frustration and/or attack the "critiquee" for being, in the eyes of the critiquer, lazy, stupid, or otherwise incompetent typically aren't very productive, if their purpose truly is to try to "help" another writer and/or his/her writing.

There's nothing wrong with Di (or anyone else) posting a peeve (especially in the "peeves" section of the forum). But let's call it what it is and not expect everyone to welcome it as a piece of friendly advice. Or even as a "critique."