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Pet peeves
Started by Factuality at 02-05-2005 9:41 AM. Topic has 108 replies.
  
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 02-05-2005, 9:41 AM
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Factuality
Joined on 08-18-2004
USA
Posts 326
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RE: Writers who don't try to learn their trade
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For whom do we write our nonfiction books and articles?
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02-05-2005, 9:50 AM
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mammamaia
Joined on 10-22-2002
island of tinian [northern marianas]
Posts 1,876
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RE: Writers who don't try to learn their trade
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your point being...?
i would assume most write for the editors they hope will decide they're worth publishing, more than they do for their eventual readers [much as they might want to claim otherwise]... it's the practical thing to do, at any rate... in my case, i write only for the readers of my work, since that's my sole purpose in writing and i don't sell it, but give it away...
so, why are you asking the question?
for 100% free help/mentoring:
www.saysmom.com
"You must BE the change you wish to see in the world." Gandhi
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02-05-2005, 10:24 AM
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Factuality
Joined on 08-18-2004
USA
Posts 326
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RE: RE: Writers who don't try to learn their trade
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QUOTE: Originally posted by mammamaia
your point being...?
It strikes me as a contradiction when a nonfiction writer devalues "reading" as a learning tool in comparison to "doing." For example:
QUOTE: Originally posted by LeeAnnSontheimerMurphy
Reading medical self-help guides doesn't make me an accomplished physician nor does perusing cookbooks make anyone an excellent cook. Hands on experience does.
QUOTE: Originally posted by LeeAnnSontheimerMurphy
Just be sure to turn the page if you run across my name and don't read the article. It might accidentially inform, inspire, or educate and we wouldn't want that.
On the one hand, this writer says reading doesn't help one to become accomplished; on the other hand, this writer says her writing might educate. Which is it? Her writing is intended to be read, isn't it? But for what purpose if she doesn't believe it helps readers become accomplished?
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02-05-2005, 10:55 AM
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zubbycat
Joined on 05-12-2004
Canada
Posts 1,064
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RE: RE: Writers who don''t try to learn their trade
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QUOTE: Originally posted by Rosarium
One is never to old for milk and cookies, if one thinks one is too old, one should go drink some milk while eating some cookies.
Did someone say cookies? Where? Where? *munch* *munch*
[(-D]
QUOTE: Originally posted by mammamaia
i would assume most write for the editors they hope will decide they're worth publishing, more than they do for their eventual readers [much as they might want to claim otherwise]... it's the practical thing to do, at any rate... in my case, i write only for the readers of my work, since that's my sole purpose in writing and i don't sell it, but give it away...
I believe that most writers write for their eventual readers. If they don't they won't produce something that an editor will be interested in anyway. Most writers keep their audience in mind. The two aren't mutually exclusive. If the writer wants to sell his or her work to an editor, the writer had better be thinking about the magazine's readers.
zubbycat :)
"Never try to outstubborn a cat." - Unknown
"Writing is easy. All you have to do is cross out the wrong words." - Mark Twain
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02-05-2005, 11:27 AM
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Muse-Less
Joined on 06-08-2004
So Cal -- AKA The Twilight Zone
Posts 176
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RE: Writers who don't try to learn their trade
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Hi all,
Well, I have to say that most of you are missing some good cannon fodder here.
Since I like to see a good food fight once in a while, let me jump right in.
1. I always wonder about someone who professes to be so right that they feel the need to shove their opinion down your throat.
2. The need to be heard: I love the people that scream so that you can hear them. You can feel the anger drip with each word they write.
3. I am. This is my most favorite line. It’s always followed by information to make you believe “they are right or someone who is an authority”. For example, I always appreciate someone who uses the bible to justify hating another -- They are evil, wrong and damned to hell. I am right! Of course, don’t ever tell them that the early Christians burned everything that they didn’t agree with. And be forewarned, most if not all have never read anything but a literal translation, and none believe man tinkered with any parts of the bible.
4. Why are you not as great as I am? – put plainly, many think they are such great people that they have an excuse to put you down, or show off how great, intelligent, or worthy they are.
Now, this is cannon fodder for the writer. Listen to the people and not only what they are writing in the forum (and commenting in other forums or such places) but why they are saying it. "Why" -- it's the most powerful word I know.
Why are they angry, sad, hurt, or in my case, cracking up as I’m writing this.
Look at the responses. How many times do they gloss over everything said to find a foothold that allows them to keep their anger going? Or, as in one person case in this forum, how do they make you feel like an idiot, and make you want to thank them for taking the time to do so – and laugh at yourself at the same time. That was a great feeling by the way – I didn’t know how to ask a question properly and was pleasantly informed.
I don’t know about any of you, but I thank each and every one here for giving a few of my characters new life. I have some hum dingers here that I can use in many different stories that would otherwise end up as paperweights.
Got to go.
I have 15 pages to edit now that I read a book on critiquing my own work, after taking a workshop on how to write, and then writing and making my mistakes, then finding questions that made me buy another book to read, and then learn where my mistakes were, only to have questions on what edit marks were returned to me from the first few chapters, which lead me back to the forum to ask a few questions on what I didn’t know – which was followed by advice on which book to read to help me learn the craft of writing.
P.S. If I ever publish a novel, which is my goal, I’ll send out comp copies to everyone. I hope you like young adult fiction.
Mark
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02-05-2005, 4:13 PM
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lisaloganwrites
Joined on 11-13-2004
Sandwiched between LA and Palm Springs
Posts 35
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RE: Writers who don't try to learn their trade
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QUOTE: that's where reading the book comes in - those vague little laws and street rules like a four-way stop or how to signal if you're riding a bicycle...
you can have one or the other, but having both makes you a better driver overall.
[bow] Exactly the point, St George. Well said!
LeeAnn, I respect you as a writer and am happy to allow your opinion. As for milk and cookies, didn't mean to crumble your limburger. Sorry. Perhaps you feel it would be more grownup of me to say 'suck down a vodka rocks,' but we're teetotalers at my house. Plus milk contains L-tryptophan, which I'm convinced could be of great help to many who frequent message boards.
[:D]
I don't begrudge your opinion, it's just that I've yet to see it shared by those who are up where I hope to be. I mean absolutely no offense when I say this, but I've never heard of you outside of this board. Yet many editors, agents, and authors have written about how to succeed as a writer--and they sway to Di's tune. You may feel you've gained a measure of success by doing things your way, and more power to you! As long as you're happy, that's great. For my betting money, though, until editors I hope to sub to or authors named Tan, Rowling, Higgins Clark, or Steele start coming on this board to join the cause against learning craft, I'm going with the Di-hards.
Off to enjoy a nice batch of chocolate chip with a glass of 2%, because yup even grownups can...
Janell
Living proof that a little knowledge is dangerous
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02-05-2005, 5:00 PM
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zubbycat
Joined on 05-12-2004
Canada
Posts 1,064
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RE: Writers who don't try to learn their trade
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Hey, Kat. Oreos over chocolate chip cookies?? Now, them's fighting words ... [;)]
zubbycat (you know how I feel about chocolate chip cookies!) Hee hee [(-D]
"Never try to outstubborn a cat." - Unknown
"Writing is easy. All you have to do is cross out the wrong words." - Mark Twain
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02-05-2005, 5:27 PM
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shatteredday
Joined on 07-17-2004
Washington DC Suburbs
Posts 228
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RE: Writers who don't try to learn their trade
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I don't think anyone is arguing against learning craft; I get the feeling that people are arguing the position that one cannot learn writing JUST by reading about it. I would add that one cannot learn it just by reading (say, reading novels instead of books about writing), but reading is NOT a bad thing.
For myself, I think that reading about the buisiness of writing (copyright, etc.) is probably the least painful way to learn about it, certainly less painful than getting hosed over by a publisher. However, I do not think that one can learn about writing (as a craft) ONLY by reading about it.
As a parallel, take learning to play a musical instrument. While in a formal setting (class or one-on-one) one learns theory (keys and scales and intervals and the like), one still has to sit with the instrument and play the pieces, or one will never be able to play the instrument, no matter how much one learns about theory.
Further, one can learn to play an instrument without learning any formal lessons. Paul McCartney, for an example, has never, to my knowledge, learned to read or write music; I'm sure there are others like him, though perhaps not quite so successful.
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02-05-2005, 6:39 PM
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DiTryin
Joined on 12-02-2004
Posts 17
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RE: Writers who don't try to learn their trade
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Someone just emailed me about this so maybe I should have included some examples:
This gem was in the subject line of an email someone sent me:
Guidlines for artacals.
I've already mentioned the submission I received that was actually a term paper on Linux (The one topic that keeps every writer up at night, right?). Thankfully someone else already mentioned that writers should know to research their market and check the guidelines before submitting, but ... as I've learned, most don't.
On Christmas Eve (2003), I checked my computer and found these messages (the time stamp showed they were each sent one hour apart) :
#1
"I saw your post at About.com's freelance writer site. I have several great reprints you can peruse and some fresh article ideas I can pitch you as well. Shall I send them?"
#2
"I actually have a fresh article I just wrote that is unpublished. I see you're a quick payer and if you can pay by PayPal today (just ask if you don't know what PayPal is, it's really great) it's all yours!
Let me know if you'd like to see the article!!"
#3
"Here is that article! If you can agree to pay by PayPal today I can promise the article to you. It's going to the first editor that agrees to buy rights and process payment for it by PayPal today! You pay $ for original articles as I understand from your About.com post. If you are interested in this or another article idea we can do business on it today!"
[This guy missed his calling as a used car salesman]
How many times have you seen the advice: don't include a 2-page autobiography? I receive l-o-t-s of those.
Or the advice on using the appropriate tone for the publiction....
I once received a piece that, while beautifully written, jumped from one topic to another to another -- I had no idea what the piece was actually about.
Now if this is a sampling of what I receive, imagine, just for a moment, what it must be like to be the editor of a huge, glossy magazine.
In my original post if I had said, "Do SOME of You Want To Make More Money as a Freelance Writer? Then LEARN YOUR CRAFT!" maybe that would have gone over better.
It was intended to HELP people., because, as you can see, some of your comrades need it.
Diane
http://www.CoolStuff4Writers.com
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02-05-2005, 8:16 PM
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Muse-Less
Joined on 06-08-2004
So Cal -- AKA The Twilight Zone
Posts 176
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RE: RE: Writers who don't try to learn their trade
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QUOTE: Originally posted by DiTryin
[This guy missed his calling as a used car salesman]
It was intended to HELP people., because, as you can see, some of your comrades need it.
Hey there Diane.
I got quite a laugh out of the used car salesman statement -- and I needed that today.
I know exactly what you mean when you say you wanted to help.
So, let me help you too -- [:D]
Through bitter experience, I have learned that some people only read, hear and see what they want. There is no way to get through to these people easily.
The good news is that it’s so damned funny you can cry laughing. I get such a hoot when things like this happen. Please remember that it’s not you, but the challenge that you represent that draws criticism.
Listening to others can tell us a lot. When someone says “I don’t care”, what are they really saying?
When someone pouts and says “I’m leaving the forum because”, what does that tell you?
Read the allegory of the cave sometime. It says it all.
You did good, trying to be nice, help out and even come back and explain.
Thanks for your time.
Mark
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02-05-2005, 9:05 PM
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DiTryin
Joined on 12-02-2004
Posts 17
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RE: Writers who don't try to learn their trade
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Thanks, Mark (and Janell and zubbycat, who are probably the only people here who actually know me).
Yeah, I should have known I'd get flogged and/or burned at the stake because I had the audacity to try to help someone.
[banghead]
I posted that last message before I read the other two pages. I loved the milk & cookies thing. I've got a t-shirt with pictures of cows on it that says: Got Cookies? [:)] Anyone who doesn't appreciate them, we have another saying here in the south:
What's wrong with your head? [(-D]
Diane
"Honesty is the best policy, but insanity is a better defense." ~ Unknown
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02-05-2005, 9:19 PM
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Muse-Less
Joined on 06-08-2004
So Cal -- AKA The Twilight Zone
Posts 176
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RE: Writers who don't try to learn their trade
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Diane,
Just happened to see this before I went out for the evening -- School fundraiser.
The great thing about being burnt at the stake online is that -- Ta Da -- you still look good afterwards....hahahahaha
I'm in rare form tonight. Getting ready for a Casino Night -- w/out the kids [dinner]
Anyway, hope you have fun with the remainder of the weekend and don't be too harsh on critics. At my workshop today I was not very helpful critiquing others work. It's the first time It's happened, but it wasn't well recieved.
I was making a point that you can't talk out a Porsch window in a rainstorm with lightening etc and things floating down the street in New England.
And I also said the car would have stalled in the water. Realistic stuff, but not well recieved. I was only trying to help ---[banghead]
Anyway -- Out for fun and stuff -- and they are NOT serving cookies and milk where were going tonight -- Can you say Martini ?
Mark
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02-05-2005, 10:15 PM
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zubbycat
Joined on 05-12-2004
Canada
Posts 1,064
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RE: RE: Writers who don't try to learn their trade
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QUOTE: Originally posted by DiTryin
I've got a t-shirt with pictures of cows on it that says: Got Cookies? [:)]
ROFL!! That is hilarious. [(-D]
zubbycat :)
"Never try to outstubborn a cat." - Unknown
"Writing is easy. All you have to do is cross out the wrong words." - Mark Twain
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