Well, I agree with some posters and disagree with others.

I'm not overly impressed with the new Forums or the new, private sections. 

But I don't think whether or not someone is a professional writer is based on whether or not he or she subscribes to The Writer.  Nor whether or not she picks up a newstand copy.  Or even whether or not the writer visits this or other forums or writers communities online.

As for the market info posted here, I myself am disappointed.  Much of what I perused was out of date and IMO it's much better to check a publication's website for updated information and current listings.

dbmaine56 wrote:

I thoroughly enjoyed your take on the subject, Scribbly! And, wholeheartedly agree. In addressing the entire site, It seems to me that most of the disagreement on the site seems to be coming from those who consider themselves experts. Why are they so upset over the fact that they can't critique anyone unless they subscribe or pay to be on the site? (That's mainly the area the complaints seem to be about).  The complaint seems to be, from this group, that the corporation would be paid for Their critique of someone else's work. So they refuse to join or subscribe in protest. (shake my head here) They were never paid to begin with on the site. They critiqued because they wanted to. The critiques are a gray area anyhow. There is no way I would risk losing First Rights by posting my novels a piece at a time on this site, or any other site for critiques. Nor, do I give critiques. It's a mute point to me. However, for those who still want to receive critiques, well, there are many who would still provide the service on this site. For those who don't realize this, critiques are, for the most part, a matter of one writer's opinion (suggestions) over another, unless it is grammar related. As for the critiques, the most published author can give such an off the wall, weird critique, or a good one and the so called 'wanna-be' could have the best idea no one had ever thought of, or a weird critique as well. The result on how you feel about the critique, or use the changes is up to the actual writer of the piece. To me, a writer is a writer, we learn from each other and from what we read, publish, and experience. As for Free writer forum sites, I've seen a lot of them and some are informative and I go on them daily, as well. Though in looking at some of the other sites and comparing them to this site, most are 'run' by a handful of members who commandeer the site. If anyone makes that least little objection or states their opinion that is different from theirs, a free for all starts and overtakes the site for days until the thread is shut down by the site administrator. This site is one of the few sites that seem to respect all writers in the field for the most part. It's been stated that the subscriber's to The Writer, are mostly wanna-bes, and that the 'expert' writer's have outgrown a magazine that is for beginners, but in the same breath say that they buy the magazine off the rack when an article catches their interest. Huh? Being published doesn't make you an 'expert'. If you are such an expert, what are you even doing on the site wasting your time, that in your opinion, contains mostly wannabes? There are articles that are basic how-to in The Writer, but there is so much more in the interest of writing. For example - for a genres that I write, I have learned a lot and am comfortable  in my writing and look for the other type of articles in The Writer to help me along and/or keep me motivated. I also read it (among others) to get up-to-date information in what is new in the field.  For a genre or type of writing (say, screenplays) that I may get into, then I need the basics for it and would dive into the articles for them. I didn't start writing yesterday, nor have I resorted to self-publishing my novels so that I can hold up a book and say I'm published! Anyone can pay someone to print a manuscript in book form. I got published the old fashioned way and got paid for it. But I didn't then, nor do I now, consider myself an 'expert'. Writing is a learning field and aways will be. The market constantly changes.  Look on the book store shelves and pick up a book. This one contains the worse writing you ever saw and you're shocked when you see that it was published by a major house. Then reach over and pick up a book right beside it. The writing in this one is some of the best you ever saw and surprise, you find that it was published by that same house. The variables are always there. For the writers who can't or don't want to subscribe, you can still read the entire site and there are enough folders open on this site to converse with other writers. If they aren't enough for you, then feel free to move on.

I certainly don't consider myself an 'expert'; I do, however, consider my writing as my intellectual property. Don't you? So why should someone else be paid for it? Whether or not it's 'expert' advice, or sheer unwashed pabulum is irrelevant, really, as you point out, it's what you take from it.

And yes, I did critique, and receive critiques because I wanted to - that's rather the point, isn't it? I'm not looking to get paid, I'm simply averse to paying someone else for the privilege of giving my own opinion, or receiving an opinion. Kalmbach doesn't have the right to charge me for this. Sorry if you don't understand that.

Perhaps part of the reason you don't understand this, and (shake your head) may be because you were never interested in sharing any of your work with the community here, as you admit. ('Critiques are a moot point..') This community, particularly in the poetry critique section, enjoyed sharing their work with one another, and actually formed friendships over it...

As for a 'writer being a writer, we learn from each other,' that is no longer altogether true here; a 'writer' must now be a subscriber, and many of the best writers who used to post here aren't.

Your cavalier attitude ('If they aren't enough for you, then feel free to move on') is a tacit admission on your part that you don't get it.

This was a community. Perhaps I, and others, have not sufficiently articulated our pique in this particular area; that's our blind spot. Perhaps we just assumed that others were as interested in being part of a group of writers as we were, as opposed to coming here only for pointers and helpful articles...

As for this site being "... one of the few sites that seem to respect all writers in the field for the most part.' I've already pointed out to you why this is no longer true; they no longer respect me, or any other non-subscriber.

Not to worry. I have no doubt many subscribers will be singing a new tune when, as I suspect, the market listings and other pay-for-use goodies WM plans to bring on site shortly will require payment above and beyond subscription.

I don't want to get into a long argument about this, db, since I may not be here to conclude it

The First Rights issue is a bogeyman, there are ways around it. Delete the piece and edit. We are talking about chapter excerpts, etc. No-one has posted an entire novel...

I wasn't second-guessing; I took your words at face value. Was I wrong to do so?

I don't expect them to give anything away for free either, IF IT'S THEIRS TO GIVE. My opinion isn't. Why do you find this difficult to grasp? It's also a ethical and legal issue...

I don't mind paying for services. How does voluntary peer critique constitute a service for which they can charge me?

You have yet to address the issue of community. I won't guess what this means.

Is it not possible, at least for some, to deduct the cost of the subscription as a business expense?

I understand the logic behind the premium forums, but I still think it's a very bad idea.  I'm not going to become a premium member simply because I buy The Writer every month, but do not subscribe.  I have good reasons for buying it, rather than subscribing.

Now, since I'm a full-time writer, and have been an editor, I might be considered an expert, but this is one expert that isn't going to subscribe in order to get into the premium forums because I already buy The Writer, and intend to continue buying it from the newsstand.

Time will tell, but I do think the move to premium forums was a bad move for forum members.  Whether or not it helps The Writer is something only they can know, but I see no way at all that the new forum is going to be of as much benefit to struggling writers.

I agree with most of what has been said about the premium forums.  I think it was a very bad move.

I don't agree at all that The Writer and Writer's Digest offer very little for the itermediate and advanced writer.  I've been writing for twenty-five years, I've sold nine novels, almost a hundred short stories, too many articles to count, plus all sorts of other trivia such as recipes, fillers, columns, essays, and you name it, but I still find The Writer and Writer's Digest (And Byline, Poets & Writers, Writers' Jounal, etc.) to be extremely valuable.

Yes, there's much repeated advice, but there's also seldom an issue where I don't find some bit of information and/or advice that makes me a better writer.  And sometimes hearing the same old adivce put a new way can make it sink in, or remind me of something I've forgotten.  I also find tips on markets, editors, publishers, and other things that give me need to know information.  I do find very useful bits of advice in many of teh how-to articles, but not all the articles are how to write pieces, anyway.  Many deal with the state of publishers, agants, etc TODAY.   A writer needs to know this, and none of it is stuff you've heard in the past because the markets, editors, agents, etc. all change. 

I've made quite a few sales I never would have made had I not read The Writer, or one of the other writing magazines.  As I said, I find something worthwhile in nearly every issue, but if only one issue a year gave me something of value, I'd still come out way ahead.  The magazine just doesn't cost all that much, and even a tiny sale covers the cost of twelve issues.

Having said all of this, I don't subscribe, either.  I do, however, buy and read The Writer every month.  So it ticks me off a little that I must subscribe for these premium forums.  I'm not going to do this.  My money goes to a bookstore that needs it more that The Writer.  And what about those who can't afford to subscribe or buy the magazine, but who faithfully read it at the library each month.  Many of these people will subscribe, when they can afford to do so, but for now they're shut out of the premium forums.

If the publishers want subscriptions that much, they need to stop shipping magazines to bookstores and libraries.

NEOPHYTE wrote:

Why would they transfer people's works to the new forum and deny them access to their own material?  Why not start anew?  It's holding them hostage.  They cannot delete it until they subscribe to the magazine, but the jokes on them because they cannot delete it anyway.   Real writer?   A real writer is someone who writes because she/he has to, or  he/she enjoys it.  A real writer is someone who not only writes, but also continues to write and grow.   Writing is a journey.  The pompous would be wise to remember they first started somewhere.  You may be a natural, but odds are someone helped you along the way.  I would suggest helping your brothers/sisters, rather than looking down on those who have not achieved your level of experience or surpassed you yet. I'm almost sad to admit that I do have a subscription, not my first to Writer   In addition, most critique groups are for works in progress, not meant for the publishing stage yet.   Why would you have a critique group if you do not need critiques?

Well, I'm not at all a believer in critique groups, and I've seen a lot more writers hurt by such groups than I've ever seen helped.  People who write are writers, though it is fair to call some wannabe writers, some pro writers, just as it's fair to call some short story writers and some novelists. I guess I fall into the "natural" category, and the only help I had was reading short stories and novels others had published.  But does it really matter?  Certainly not where a forum such as this is concerned.

But however you define "real" writer, I suspect premium forums will do just the opposite.  I can't see any reason why a professional writer would subscribe, and little reason for any but pure neophytes to have the premium forums.  Where they probably won't much help from professionals.

That said, I don't think The Writer had any business locking away posted stories.  Though if you have access, you can delete a story through the editing process.  Anythng you can edit, you can delete.

I do believe the premium forums are a huge mistake, but only The Writer knows for sure.  If it works out for them, great, they made a good call.  If it doesn't, all will depend on whether or not that have the courage to say it isn't working and go back.  Really none of my business either way.  I don't own the forum or the magazine.

NEOPHYTE wrote:

I just hate seeing a good thing die.

So do I.  The premium forums may not kill anything, but I do think they'll change it beyond recognition.

Very sneaky of The Wrter to leave just enough free forum to try keep the more experienced writers around.  Well, there are other forums, and many writers are going to those.  Especially AbsoluteWrite.  Things change, I guess.